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Poll closed Question: The Patrol Rifle Course, your thoughts.
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Well worth the time    
  3 (100.0%)
Good for only one round    
  0 (0.0%)
Damn, they are taking away my break...    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 3
« Created by: mkenitzer on: Oct 6th, 2006 at 6:50pm »
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Patrol Rifle Course (Read 4431 times)
mkenitzer
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Patrol Rifle Course
Oct 6th, 2006 at 6:50pm
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Ok, first of all our base decieded to put on the Patrol Rifle Course at our base thats starting monday, i was wanting to know eveyones views about this, pros and cons...but specifically the instructor, And what we know is his first name "Steve"  we have been having issues with this in our shop...all of us think its stupid and a waste of money, for basicly an advance weapons handing.  Thankyou very much
  
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Freddy10
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #1 - Oct 6th, 2006 at 8:42pm
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What does the course involve?  What kind of shooting are they doing?  Is it realistic?  I am all for shooting and moving if it can be applied in combat and or a real world situation.  I will give you my opinion if you give me an idea of what you are doing.
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #2 - Oct 8th, 2006 at 8:27am
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HuhI've never heard of this course. To piggyback on Freddy 10, Who authorized or designed this course? Is MAJCOM awareof it? One thing to think about is accountability. If you have an accidental shooting on a course that was devised locally and has not been approved, it will be someones ass. Remember, to cover your's with paperwork.
  
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mockingbird killer
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #3 - Oct 9th, 2006 at 4:55am
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I worked that class last year.  All i know is, Steve is a "Bare-Asser", and if its one person i dont trust, its a "Bare-Asser"...  The class is a pain in the ass.  Have fun kenitzer...
  

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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #4 - Oct 10th, 2006 at 1:00pm
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Mockingbird killer....
Sounds like something someone would do at Tech school while shooting the M4......
Kill a Mockingbird that is....
  
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2006 at 1:34am
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Are you talking about a combat patrol with live rounds?
  
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mockingbird killer
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2006 at 3:54am
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Raven-  I have no idea what you are talking about.

CATMGIRL-- Yes its with live rounds.  Its a good concept, but with cops who can barely fire the TRQC class and qualify, its a SCARY waste of time.
  

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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2006 at 7:58am
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No problemo-thought you were someone else
  
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catmgirl
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #8 - Oct 11th, 2006 at 8:44pm
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We use to do a live fire patrol at Nellis back in the 80s.  Yes, it was scary and we had an instructor at each point and one in the middle, so if you had a fire team of 4, there were 5 instructors.  In the 90s up at Guernsy WY we put together a patrol with 4 people, 1 60, 1 203 and 2 rifleman.  They moved out in a strong wedge (for safety reasons) and engaged popups.  Additionally, we simualted gas, made them get the chem stuff on and procede to a specific point, still engaging targets.  We had some special forces guys there from Ft Lewis and they did it and thought it was pretty cool and could not believe the AF would do something like this.  BTW, back at Nellis we would do combat patrol on friday and by Friday afternoon, we were at the club drinking....many close calls.  I will have to say this, they did learn a lot.  As scary as it was, it made them scan down range and close up.  We would pop up three hundred mtr targets and the 25=50m and they would kill the close ones, get up and start walking and never see the 300s.  We would stop them, tell them they were dead and start over.  Most of our injuries came from the ^%$*& shooting into the berm, forgetting the muzzle was 2 inches below the sites... Shocked
  
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #9 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 4:06pm
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The course last year was a 3 day course over pretty much nothing but quick reaction the whole time. This year it is only 2 days. The idea is a good one but the stuff he teaches is against regs. His immediate action is different then what we teach and he sights the M-68's in a 100 meters. After the class we have to rezero the 68's for qual. He does each the shooters new postions that work good. The class does help some shooters but others it does'nt make a difference. We had people that did last years couirse and shot about 2500 rounds a piece in 3 days and still failed the iron sights portion of TRQC with a 10 or 12. He does'nt teach anything about breathe control or trigger squeeze. He assumes poeple already know this. It would be alright for advanced shooters but not your typical Security Forces shooters.
  

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mkenitzer
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 4:11pm
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Baicly the course uses 193's and and the classes are 2 days long with 15-20 person class with there M-4's and its all Quck Reaction.  They go though different firing techniques and positions that go aginst regs,  for the past few days i can see how some of the positions can help you out in combat, and they dont really go over breath control, trigger squese ext.  But there are alot of items that they teach that go totally oposite aginst the AFQC or TRQC courses.  and expecially with the cops....who most of them cant shoot to save there lives ( and i think most of you woudl agree with me too on that. lol)  And alot of the stuff they try to do muscle memory with,for example... of how to load the weapon, by putting in the magazine, with the bolt to the rear, grabbing the charging handle, bringing it back, and letting it go to load a round. And doing the same thing for reloads, not once have i seen any of them used the bolt catch at all.....and wanting to walk and fire at the same time, and they totally teach a different way of SPORTS, and baicly say, that our way is the wrong way.  I personally think most of it is a waste of time. and honestly...no one really wants to be there at all either...  A few people that are in it right now, went though it last year, and said the same thing.  And i can just see it.... the next TRQC, alot of the cops will be trying to do the stuff they were taught in the course, and start thowing up fits becasuse they cant do what they learned in the class...  I think we all know how that is.  even the cops that go though this and shoot over 700 rounds, still cant hit the broad side of a barn.  Oh..not to mention, zeroing there 68's for 100m distance, AT 25m....hm... ill have more detials.
  
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mkenitzer
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #11 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 4:13pm
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Lol, i laughed so hard when i was told about the...m4....firing range...bird "accident"....lol.
  
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mkenitzer
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #12 - Oct 12th, 2006 at 4:16pm
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193Redhat wrote on Oct 8th, 2006 at 8:27am:
HuhI've never heard of this course. To piggyback on Freddy 10, Who authorized or designed this course? Is MAJCOM awareof it? One thing to think about is accountability. If you have an accidental shooting on a course that was devised locally and has not been approved, it will be someones ass. Remember, to cover your's with paperwork.


This course is all ran by Civilians.  None of is approved by MAJCOM at all and im pretty sure they are not aware of it...but someone had to throw a fit to make it happen.
  
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #13 - Oct 13th, 2006 at 9:45am
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The Combat Rifle program in the mid 80's at Nellis did the patrol.  Comes out of the Army field manual.  Combat Rifle use to be a week long program for Grp A and sometimes B..depending upon the career field.  We did not do a box patrol as we felt that was a bit risky.  We did a stronge wedge most of the time.  These courses, both the one at Nellis and the one we did at Guernsy WY were blessed by MAJCOM.  Done right, it is a good learning experience for the troop
  
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Re: Patrol Rifle Course
Reply #14 - Oct 14th, 2006 at 3:33am
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Kenitzer, is steve doin it this year also?
  

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