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NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011 (Read 27056 times)
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #60 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 5:21pm
 
I have to agree with STONEWALL, I've read over everything and will continue to review it for planning/organizational purposes, but I feel that a few tweeks to the current AFQC would be all that's needed. I would add Evals of all hands-on performance parts as they've done, cut out practice, and then add two "standing" orders of fire after the qualification phase (one failure drill; 2-chest/1-head and the second would be controlled burst/auto fire. This is only done prior to a deployment tasking, so if a troop is broke, pregnant, or has personal issues, they won't do this for a little while, so I feel that the info taught will still not be retained (refering to the new changes). I feel that basic skills taught more frequently (will likely never happen) would yield better results (quarterly as previously mentioned). I also feel that if your qualification score was tied into your promotion (as the ARMY has done) this would help too.

For example, a shop pushing 5K plus Airman a year: teach base pop. "full" (time frame) M16 classes split between the first and last weeks of the month, then everything inbetween would be taught like you'd teach a SF Rifle class (minimum standards already mentioned in AFI 36-2226). That's just my opinion though as I've noticed that a good number of Army Soldiers that miss "Sharp Shooter" or "Expert" are almost always begging to come back to shoot because of how it affects their promotion points and they tend to know if they've really had a good/bad day because of having more experience with the weapon.  
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #61 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 6:24pm
 
Man, 5,000 shooters per year, 6500 shooter per year.  Here we pump out about 14,000 shooters per year and that doesn't include the refires!!! Shocked
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #62 - Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:34pm
 
You guys have a lot of refires? How many per month avg?
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #63 - Sep 23rd, 2011 at 8:21pm
 
Blah Blah Blah!!!  Quit bitchin and start training!!!  Wink
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #64 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 7:47pm
 
Well, I've spent a few days reading all of this, and as an ORF who started as CORE CATM, active duty, and ended up as a Traditional ANG CATM/SF, I'd like to think that I've seen enough from both the active and guard sides to be able to comment on this.

While I have to agree with Stonewall that the AF Higher Higher really needs to collectivly pull their heads out of their asses, (or anyone else's ass as the case may be), and start mandating on-going training and not just qualification, I personally feel that one day of class/range, (for active duty, and 1/2 day class/range for ANG), is better than nothing.  That is not to say that I agree that the AF is correct in it's belief that CATM can, in such a short time, turn out fully trained and qualified "Warriors."  That is without a doubt total BS.

I do realize though, that CATM is, and has always been, forced to work with what we have.  In the CORE CATM days, we at least had full time CATM Instructors, and today we don't even have that.  We have to be COPs first, and CATM second.  Add to that the handicap, (at least on the ANG side), of having the SF squadron use the CATM shop for a dumping ground for cops they don't like because they are too lazy or stupid to be cops, and it quickly becomes evident, even to cops, that CATM in it's current state, does not possess the time, facilities, nor ammo to conduct the training it takes to really turn our Airmen into the WARRIORS that AF HH wants.  So, just as we've always had to do, we must continue to do as much as we can with what we have at our disposal.

I'd doubt that there is a soul in the CATM ranks, (who is worth their salt), who doesn't wish we could be JUST CATM, and truly focus on preparing our fellow Airmen for the threats they will encounter on their next deployment.  Furthermore, I believe that we would all love to see real training specific to the units deploying. 

Cops get range training based on base defence.  Popup targets out to 400+m, building search and clear, ECP scenarios.

Transportation units get training on Convoy related exercises, both in urban and open country areas, with at a minimum familarization training on M-240B, M-249, M-203, M-2, and MK-19, incase the drivers ever have to man the convoy weapons.  This has happened before, to the Transportation unit from my last base.  Luckily, we managed to get them enough training that they were able to fight their way out.

AC Maintainers would have their training focused on mid range shooting, 25 to 100 m and have both hostile and friendly targets to sort through.

Backoffice types would have a training focused on CQB and short range work, again with both hostile and friendly targets to enforce target ID.

Pilots would have focused training on medium to long range pistol, shooting from cover and prone positions.

Training, IMHO, should be tailored to what the individual is most likely to encounter given their duty assignment.  Lets face it, what are the chances that an Airman working in personel will ever have to engage a target beyond 50m?  If personnel folks are being armed and have to fight, chances are that the hostiles are already in the base perimiter.

Of course, inorder for this to happen, it would require there to be more funds allowcated for ammo, time allowcated for training, and CATM Instructors allowcated to TEACHING!

So, some yutz at AFHQ empliments a new harder to pass qual course that accomplishes nothing more than to piss off a bunch of CATM folks, but on the plus side, gets him a promotion, and life goes on.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #65 - Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:39pm
 
I don't think it was ever intended for CATM to teach war fighting skills to the average airman working in say, the hospital or in aircraft maintenance.  We were supposed to teach that person how to safely handle the type weapon they would be issued on a deployment, how to operate the weapon, how to maintain the weapon, and how to use basic marksmanship fundamentals to effectively engage a target.  All this so that IF they found themselves in a situation where they had to use a weapon to defend themselves, they could do so.  All the tactical stuff has its place, but it's those four basic skills that are the most important.  The courses of fire were simply a way to measure learning rather than attempt to duplicate a realistic combat training atmosphere like one would get in the Army or Marine Corps.  Sounds like things are more complicated now.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #66 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 11:43am
 
Ice_Pirate wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 7:47pm:
Well, I've spent a few days reading all of this, and as an ORF who started as CORE CATM, active duty, and ended up as a Traditional ANG CATM/SF, I'd like to think that I've seen enough from both the active and guard sides to be able to comment on this.

While I have to agree with Stonewall that the AF Higher Higher really needs to collectivly pull their heads out of their asses, (or anyone else's ass as the case may be), and start mandating on-going training and not just qualification, I personally feel that one day of class/range, (for active duty, and 1/2 day class/range for ANG), is better than nothing.  That is not to say that I agree that the AF is correct in it's belief that CATM can, in such a short time, turn out fully trained and qualified "Warriors."  That is without a doubt total BS.

I do realize though, that CATM is, and has always been, forced to work with what we have.  In the CORE CATM days, we at least had full time CATM Instructors, and today we don't even have that.  We have to be COPs first, and CATM second.  Add to that the handicap, (at least on the ANG side), of having the SF squadron use the CATM shop for a dumping ground for cops they don't like because they are too lazy or stupid to be cops, and it quickly becomes evident, even to cops, that CATM in it's current state, does not possess the time, facilities, nor ammo to conduct the training it takes to really turn our Airmen into the WARRIORS that AF HH wants.  So, just as we've always had to do, we must continue to do as much as we can with what we have at our disposal.

I'd doubt that there is a soul in the CATM ranks, (who is worth their salt), who doesn't wish we could be JUST CATM, and truly focus on preparing our fellow Airmen for the threats they will encounter on their next deployment.  Furthermore, I believe that we would all love to see real training specific to the units deploying.  

Cops get range training based on base defence.  Popup targets out to 400+m, building search and clear, ECP scenarios.

Transportation units get training on Convoy related exercises, both in urban and open country areas, with at a minimum familarization training on M-240B, M-249, M-203, M-2, and MK-19, incase the drivers ever have to man the convoy weapons.  This has happened before, to the Transportation unit from my last base.  Luckily, we managed to get them enough training that they were able to fight their way out.

AC Maintainers would have their training focused on mid range shooting, 25 to 100 m and have both hostile and friendly targets to sort through.

Backoffice types would have a training focused on CQB and short range work, again with both hostile and friendly targets to enforce target ID.

Pilots would have focused training on medium to long range pistol, shooting from cover and prone positions.

Training, IMHO, should be tailored to what the individual is most likely to encounter given their duty assignment.  Lets face it, what are the chances that an Airman working in personel will ever have to engage a target beyond 50m?  If personnel folks are being armed and have to fight, chances are that the hostiles are already in the base perimiter.

Of course, inorder for this to happen, it would require there to be more funds allowcated for ammo, time allowcated for training, and CATM Instructors allowcated to TEACHING!

So, some yutz at AFHQ empliments a new harder to pass qual course that accomplishes nothing more than to piss off a bunch of CATM folks, but on the plus side, gets him a promotion, and life goes on.


How many separate courses would that be?  How many rounds would you use for each?
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #67 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 12:01pm
 
excatmguy wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 8:39pm:
I don't think it was ever intended for CATM to teach war fighting skills to the average airman working in say, the hospital or in aircraft maintenance...


Well if CATM doesn't teach these skills, who will?  Or should we continue to rely on our Airmen to just wing it, if they ever actually see a combat situation?

The fact of the matter comes down to Training, and serious training can not be accomplished in one day at the range.  As Stonewall was saying, it's not enough time to build muscle memory or to fully develop the weapons handeling skills needed for close quarters combat.

It takes more than just being able to hit a target, to survive a combat engagement.  If this is all we are intended to teach, then we are not fulfilling the needs of the student.

As for the last statement of my previous post, sorry.  I had not intended to imply that those at the school who are responcible for produceing LPs and QCs, i.e. program development, do not take their job seriously.  I realize that we all must follow orders and take direction from our superiors and do the best with what we have.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #68 - Sep 27th, 2011 at 3:32pm
 
I agree with you Ice Pirate...I guess my point is that it was always that way.  Anyone who has worked in CATM and cares about the job realizes that the training is minimal for most people and completely inadequate for some, especially with the conflicts going on now.  Every once in a while a new course of fire comes along designed to improve on the old, but what you have to work with never reallly changes...not enough manpower in CATM thanks to the cops, and not enough time spent actually pulling the trigger for those that really need it.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #69 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 8:42pm
 
blaster wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 11:43am:
[
How many separate courses would that be?  How many rounds would you use for each?



Relax Blaster, I was talking about a perfect world with unlimited facilities, ammo, full time CATM Instructors.  I know, it could never happen, but it's nice to dream.

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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #70 - Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:55pm
 
Okay, here's my "dream" plan:

- Basic trainees get the same training I got in CATM Tech school; 5 days on the rifle, last day is qual day.  This only covers basic fundamental 4 positon shooting. No qual-no graduate.
- Annually, everyone gets a 100 round course covering the basic 4 positons and 100 rounds on short range marksmanship.
- Predeployment, the same 200 round course followed by 100 rds night training followed by full distance firing (100 rounds) and shoot, move, communicate (dry-fire, sims and live fire).  5 days for the entire taining.  This would be as close to departure as possible (within 30 days)

Broad objective - Airmen can effectively employ the weapon from the muzzle out to max effective range (call it 300m). In addition they must prove their ability to safely handle, operate and maintain said weapon or they are a NO-GO.

Now an off-the-wall question; Can someone here define "tactical" or better yet "Tactical Training"?

Thanks!
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #71 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:27am
 
Blaster, do you feel that the predeployment shooting should be accomplished at home station or at CST?  I see CST as the perfect location and time frame to spend on longer more in-depth skills training.
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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2011 at 10:35am by 132CATM »  

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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #72 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 5:08pm
 
132CATM wrote on Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:27am:
Blaster, do you feel that the predeployment shooting should be accomplished at home station or at CRT?  I see CRT as the perfect location and time frame to spend on longer more in-depth skills training.



Not sure what "CRT" is...probably what used to be CST?

I don't have a preference as long as they have the time and resources to do it.  But, I doubt many of our bases have those resources.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #73 - Sep 29th, 2011 at 7:17pm
 
blaster wrote on Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:55pm:
Okay, here's my "dream" plan:

- Basic trainees get the same training I got in CATM Tech school; 5 days on the rifle, last day is qual day.  This only covers basic fundamental 4 positon shooting. No qual-no graduate.
- Annually, everyone gets a 100 round course covering the basic 4 positons and 100 rounds on short range marksmanship.
- Predeployment, the same 200 round course followed by 100 rds night training followed by full distance firing (100 rounds) and shoot, move, communicate (dry-fire, sims and live fire).  5 days for the entire taining.  This would be as close to departure as possible (within 30 days)

Broad objective - Airmen can effectively employ the weapon from the muzzle out to max effective range (call it 300m). In addition they must prove their ability to safely handle, operate and maintain said weapon or they are a NO-GO.

Now an off-the-wall question; Can someone here define "tactical" or better yet "Tactical Training"?

Thanks!


First off, great training regiem.  That is really what is needed.  Not just a 1/2 day in class and an hour or 2 before qual to practice, but several days of intensive training to build muscle memory and the skills needed to not only pass the qual, but to survive a combat engagement.

As to your questions:

Webster's new world dictionary defines Tactical as, "1. The science of maneuvering military and naval forces.  2. any skillful methods to gain an end"  Tactical being the adjitive of tactic

Merriam-Webster from their web site:
Definition of TACTICAL
1: of or relating to combat tactics: as a (1) : of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles> b of an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces
2a : of or relating to tactics: as (1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

While I could not find a definition of Tactical Training, I'd feel safe to say that it would be defined as the act of educating one, or one's self, in the use of tactics.

To put this in the context of CATM, it would be the act of teaching military or combat tactics as they relate to armed conflict of the individual, i.e. use of cover and concealment, manouver of individuals and small units to gain advantage in that conflict, and the effective employment of arms.

From what I've read of the new AFQC, it goes a long way to fill these needs, as it incorporates the use of cover and concealment, smooth and effeciant weapons handling including loading, immeadiate action and reloading, employment of weapons for targets both near and far, manouver of both individuals and small teams, weapon transistions, and all in a varied environment, like day light, low light and full dark.  Where it seems to have dropped the ball, is in the time allowed for training before qualification.  However, given the limits on training time, ammo, and facilities, I feel the authors and evaluators of this course, were delt a lousy hand, and have done their best to turn lemons into lemonade.

Finially, for 132, I agree with you, this training at a CRT would be much better as they have the facilites to handle it, more than the individual bases do.  It kind of reminds me of the late 1980's when there was rumors of establishing massive "Regional Ranges" where we could focus limited resources and facilities into massive training centers.  However, that idea seemed to slip by the wayside, probably due to the cost of shipping our Airmen off to the ranges for multiday training.
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Re: NEW AFQC!!! 01Dec2011
Reply #74 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 10:38am
 
Sorry Blaster...fat fingers (CST). 
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